The following is an interview Animage magazine held with Yoshiyuki Tomino and Yoshiki Tanaka to promote the upcoming movies Mobile Suit Gundam: Char’s Counterattack and Legend of the Galactic Heroes: My Conquest Is the Sea of Stars. The label “AM” denotes that one of the Animage staff is speaking.
Yoshiyuki Tomino VS Yoshiki Tanaka Special Talk
Yoshiyuki Tomino
Born November 5, 1941 in Kanagawa Prefecture. Graduated from Nihon University College of Art in 1964. After that, he joined Mushi Productions and was in charge of writing the script for and directing Astro Boy. After leaving Mushi Productions, he went freelance and directed films such as Triton of the Sea and Star of La Seine, and in 1979 he drew attention as the original author and director of Mobile Suit Gundam. He is currently busy working every day on Mobile Suit Gundam: Char’s Counterattack, scheduled for release in March 1988.
Yoshiki Tanaka
Born October 22, 1952 in Kumamoto Prefecture. He began publishing novels while attending Gakushuin University, and in 1978, under the pen name Yutaka Rinoie, he won the 3rd Gen’ei-jo Newcomer Award. His first full-length novel, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, made him an instant hit, and the 10th volume, published in November 1987, marked the end of his Taiga Drama. His other works include The Heroic Legend of Arslan (published by Kadokawa Shoten). He has been interested in animation since his university days, and an anime adaptation of Legend of the Galactic Heroes is currently in the works.
The fun of Gundam lies in the “confrontation of perspectives”
The meeting took place somewhere in Shinjuku, Tokyo. Yoshiki Tanaka-san arrived a little earlier than the appointed time. Yoshiyuki Tomino-san appeared about an hour late, apologizing with a, “Sorry about that.” Both authors write stories set in space, but the content of their conversation turned to somewhat lofty topics such as “where the author stands.” But aside from that, being a talk between two men, they also touched on their views on women. This added a subtle flavor to the conversation, making it an enjoyable one.
“It can take me more than a month to come up with a name for the main character” (Tomino)
Tanaka
It’s a pleasure to meet you. I’m sorry for asking you to come out here today… (sounding a little nervous, his tone somewhat reminiscent of a nobleman).
Tomino
No no, I’m the one who’s late. I’m Tomino (greeting him while wiping sweat from his brow, dressed in ethnic attire).
AM
In fact, Tanaka-san is a big fan of Gundam and wanted to meet and talk with the creator, Tomino-san, which is how this interview came about.
Tomino
Are you watching Gundam?
Tanaka
Yes, I’ve seen most of it.
Tomino
Why? It’s not even worth watching (laughs).
Tanaka
Well, I was really drawn to the freshness of the names, like “mobile suit” and “White Base”. I’d like to hear more about how they were named.
Tomino
The general term “robot” no longer had any freshness to it, so we thought of an alternative name and that’s how we ended up with it. For example, as for the origin of the word “mobile suit,” the first thing we considered was that there are scenes where robots fight each other. Because the sponsor is a toy company, those scenes are absolutely necessary. And when it comes to combat, you need machines that have mobility, so I decided to use the word “mobile.” The “suits” are machines. Well, if we didn’t differentiate it, it wouldn’t be talked about.
Tanaka
Did it take a long time to come up with a name like that?
Tomino
Of course. It can take me more than a month to come up with a name.
Tanaka
I understand that very well. I have trouble with names too… But editors don’t seem to appreciate that. Some even say things like, “Just leave the name blank and write the story first,” which is troubling.
Tomino
That kind of thing is a real problem. Names aren’t just labels, after all. When the name of the main character and the title are a perfect match, I can write smoothly from then on, and before I know it, it’s a 20-volume epic, but on the other hand, when the name and title don’t work out, I stop writing halfway through. Well, in my case, it’s pretty easy because I just make up the names, but for you, it must be difficult because you are using real historical figures.
Tanaka
There have been several times when I’ve included the names of real people in a story, used one for the name of a main character, and then thought, “I messed up!” If the name is poorly chosen, it creates an awkward friction between history and the story…
Tomino
I understand that feeling. It’s especially stressful when a story uses proper nouns. You can see something like the author’s “determination” in the writing before and after a proper noun. Your stories really convey that determination. It’s amazing.
Tanaka
No, that’s too kind… In addition to the freshness of the naming, there’s another thing that impressed me about Gundam. It’s difficult to explain, but it’s the “confrontation of perspectives.” For example, the White Base on Amuro’s side is instead called the “Trojan Horse” by his enemy, Char’s side. This isn’t just an expression, it applies to their ways of thinking as well.
AM
That is to say…
“Gundam is a story about two senses of justice spiraling together.” (Tanaka)
Tanaka
Actually, the other day my nephew and niece came over to my house and were watching videos of Gundam and Yamato. I ended up watching the whole time even though I had to get to work (laughs), and I noticed a similar scene in both Gundam and Yamato. In Yamato, a beautiful woman is asking for help, so they go to save her, saying it’s their duty on Earth, and they head out at full speed. They never even consider that it might be a trap set by the other side.
Meanwhile, the Trojan Horse appears in Gundam. Since Char’s side calls it the Trojan Horse, at one point, Char says, “The Trojan Horse is a decoy, a diversionary tactic,” and decides not to go out on a mission. In other words, the enemy – I’m not sure if I can really call Char an enemy, but from the protagonist’s perspective, he is an enemy – is given a sense of agency. He also has a proper strategic mindset. I felt that the author had a perspective that could be called “two senses of justice” rather than simply “good and evil”.
To put it another way, it could be called “two subjective goods” or “two senses of purpose.” These are spirally intertwined and clash in Gundam, and I found this to be a very fresh idea.
AM
I see… Now that you mention it, Yamato is truly a story of poetic justice.
Tanaka
The bad guys are absolutely bad. They kill everyone. And after killing everyone, they say things like, “We should have loved each other more” (laughs).
Tomino
However, I also believe in poetic justice.
AM
Tomino-san is not the type of person who gets pleasure from stories of good triumphing over evil…
Tomino
…
Tanaka
I think the reason Char became so popular is because he wasn’t simply evil.
Tomino
When you put it that way, I have to agree, but more simply, I think I lack the power or energy to write about true evil. I’m probably a very good person. Wohohohohoho (only he laughs). Maybe it’s because I’m not the type of person who can write evil. There are writers out there who can create an evil that needs to be defeated and write stories from the standpoint that it must be resolutely crushed. The works of such people are satisfying to read. From an entertainment perspective, you could say this satisfying quality is an important element.
AM
But Char is evil after all, isn’t he? However, there is an idea in Gundam that even such evil has a point…
Tomino
When you put it that way, I guess I have to agree. From a different perspective, maybe it’s not that I can’t create evil, but there’s a part of me that acknowledges it.
AM
American movies like Commando don’t accept absolute evil, as if there is no merit to it.
Tanaka
In Commando, a man has a gun pointed at him, and before he can say, “If you want to save your daughter, do what I say,” the gunman starts firing away.
Tomino
There’s an incredible power to it. I could never imitate it.
AM
It’s the same with Rambo. After destroying everything, he explains why by saying, “Actually, I was in the Vietnam War…” I wish he’d said so beforehand (laughs).
Tanaka
In the end, I guess there’s no need for the process that leads to evil in those instances. If there isn’t a clear separation between good and evil, it won’t be satisfying for the viewer. In the case of Gundam, I think it’s the attention to the process of becoming evil that gave birth to a character like Char. I want what I create to be something like that, so maybe that’s why I was all the more impressed.
“I doubt that writing the villains in a negative way conveys the appeal of the protagonist.” (Tanaka)
AM
Tanaka-san, is your strong interest in Gundam‘s “two senses of justice” or “confrontation of perspectives” related to the work of Rohan Kōda, whom you studied as a student?
Tanaka
Well, I wouldn’t really call it studying… But when I read Rohan, I feel that the thing that influenced me the most was the “confrontation of perspective.” Rohan writes many historical biographies, and his writing style is such that he never speaks badly of other characters in order to highlight the protagonist. For example, there is a military commander named Ujisato Gamō who served Nobunaga Oda and Hideyoshi Toyotomi and ruled Aizu with a fief of one million koku, but he never speaks badly of Masamune Date, who was Ujisato’s enemy. In fact, he describes Masamune as an excellent military commander.
AM
Speaking of Masamune Date, he is the main character of NHK’s Taiga Drama.
Tanaka
Yes. However, in the next Taiga Drama, Takeda Shingen (original story by Jirō Nitta), the protagonist is praised to the fullest, but his enemies are criticized one after another. In Jirō Nitta’s case, he was born in Shinshu, so perhaps his love for his hometown is coming out, like “that’s our Shingen”.
AM
Shingen was from Kai, but he also expanded his influence into Shinshu.
Tanaka
That’s right. And when Nitta-san writes Nitta Yoshisada, he portrays his rival, Takauji Ashikaga, as an abnormal character. I personally have serious doubts about whether praising only the protagonist and denigrating his rival is enough to convey the charm of the protagonist. I know I’ll probably be scolded for being presumptuous and saying this, but works like Shohachi Yamaoka-san’s Tokugawa Ieyasu and Nitta-san’s Takeda Shingen seem more like evangelical books for “Ieyasu-ism” and “Shingen-ism” than novels or historical biographies.
Tomino
I understand what you’re saying very well. Whether it’s history or other stories, it’s important to write with a broader perspective. Your approach in this regard is conveyed to the readers when they read Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
Tanaka
Thank you.
Tomino
When you think about it like that, Legend of the Galactic Heroes is a great reference for young people who are thinking about reading history books, especially military history. They aren’t science fiction, rather, they’re history books. What’s more, you wrote each and every part of the history in great detail.
Tanaka
It makes me really happy to hear you say that. In fact, when I’m writing a book, the most fun part is reading historical dictionaries.
Tomino
Right? Your books are the perfect material for studying history, like a textbook, or beginner’s guide. Just reading about the historical facts is fascinating.
Nowadays, people of your generation are writing what could be commonly called heroic works. However, when I read them, I get the feeling that they are picking up and revitalizing what academic scholars have discarded. What’s more, young readers are seeking out such books. I think this is a trend of the times.
AM
One of the unique aspects of Legend of the Galactic Heroes is its prologue, which describes the evolution of the universe over the past few hundred years before getting into the main story.
Tomino
That’s right. The prologue shows the big picture of that history. I think that’s why the books are selling so well. I think that something like the prologue, which takes a bird’s-eye view of history, is fresh for young people today. This is because what is available on the market through the mass media has become so fragmented.
AM
There’s a plethora of information out there that focuses on small details.
Tomino
And then there’s the negative effects from studying for exams. You have to memorize history piece by piece to be able to answer exam questions. That’s the downside, you can’t understand the true appeal of history. That frustration is probably alleviated by Tanaka-san’s writings. After all, history is more interesting when you look at it from a broader perspective.
AM
Tanaka-san’s subject is the future, and even though it’s described as a “space opera,” it’s interesting that one could clearly call them history books.
Tomino
No matter how much of a space opera it may be, they are undoubtedly history books. The same can be said for my Gundam. Gundam is set in a future universe, and the characters’ names, like Amuro and Char, are written Westernized, but at the core of the Gundam story, I undoubtedly included something like Buddhist thought, whether consciously or unconsciously. After all, the viewers are Japanese, and the characters speak Japanese. For Gundam, the words written in katakana are by no means keywords. If you think about it, if the author’s name is written in the alphabet and becomes YOSHIYUKI TOMINO, it’s obvious that spelling is not something that was born from Japanese culture. If someone asks me, “Tomino-san, where are you from?” I have no choice but to answer, “I’m Japanese.” The other person will believe me as long as I say I am Japanese. The attitude of “I’m Japanese” will become increasingly important as globalization continues to advance.
Tanaka
No matter how many times you travel abroad, there are times when you may never be able to understand the people and society of that place.
Tomino
I think so. To put it simply, “being international means understanding the national spirit.” This is not a paradox at all. The other day, there was a speech contest for exchange students in Japan. At the contest, a student said, “When I came to Japan, all I was asked about was my own country. They hardly ever asked about what I was studying here.” Since then, the student said that he had started studying about his own country again.
I feel like I’ve strayed from the main topic (laughs). Let’s talk about Gundam.
“I believe that people who don’t incorporate shame into their work can’t write authentic stories.” (Tomino)
Tanaka
Actually, there was something I felt while watching Gundam, and it seems to be something that is common to several of your works. There are two things: one is that there are many scenes in which siblings are separated, and the other is that beautiful girls who have been brainwashed often appear (laughs). These are what I really wanted to ask you about. Are they things you do consciously?
Tomino
Hmm…to be honest, I do them consciously.
First, regarding your question about siblings being separated, that is something that concerns my real-life situation, so I can’t give you a definite answer.
Tanaka
It was very rude of me to ask that…
Tomino
No, no. Don’t worry about it. I can’t go into detail about it, but it’s definitely part of the background of my creative work. I create works in the so-called robot genre, but I feel that even if it’s about robots, an author can’t write something good without some kind of background. Without it, the work wouldn’t be a good piece, and I feel like it would be disrespectful to the people who buy and see it.
Tanaka
I totally understand.
Tomino
To be honest, it’s pretty embarrassing to express that kind of background in my work. Very embarrassing indeed. But I don’t want to write works that are free of that shame. In reality, it would be best if I could expose all my shame and still feel at ease.
Tanaka
I really think so.
Tomino
It’s the same whether it’s a robot story or what they call your space opera genre.
Tanaka
That’s certainly true.
Tomino
So, although I don’t have the courage to reveal all my shame, I always make sure to include it in my work. And in response to your other question about “there are a lot of brainwashed beautiful girls,” I think that’s the result of my view of women being distorted in various ways.
AM (woman)
The works written by Tomino-san, especially Gundam, have a strong sense of misogyny…
Tomino
When I hear that, I have no choice but to reply, “Is that so?” But as I said earlier, my feelings towards women are complicated and entangled, and although I actually have a strong admiration for women, these contradictory feelings may end up being perceived as misogyny.
AM
It’s the feeling of liking a girl, but expressing that by deliberately bullying her.
Tomino
That’s it. That’s what makes me want to tease girls all the time.
AM (woman)
So shocking!! (laughs)
Tomino
Maybe I actually don’t like girls.
AM
You’re kidding (laughs).
Tomino
I’m kidding (laughs). I like them, but I hold back.
AM
I think Tomino-san’s feelings towards girls in that regard are very “youthful.” Some other authors write situations where a man and a woman meet, and then in the next scene they’re already married.
Tanaka
They skip over the process leading up to marriage. To be honest, I tend to do that too, and when a man and a woman appear, I mentally marry them and make it a one-on-one relationship. I’m regretting it a little now though (laughs).
AM
I believe you are a newlywed.
Tanaka
Yes, it’s been exactly one year.
Tomino
Oh, of course you’d have to have them get married straight away. As the decades have passed, I feel it’s disappointing to have the boy and girl characters get married so quickly (laughs).
AM
I think it is this feeling that allows you to write your signature style of depicting the romantic process between a man and a woman in detail.
Tomino
Is that so… Am I in my youth, maybe? Also, it’s my way of expressing affection for women, or tormenting them (laughs). Anyway, I want to point out that although I portray women in that way, I always do so within certain ethical restrictions. I have feelings, but I always suppress them. I do try to cover them up. I think it would be all over if I stopped doing so, but there’s a lot of explicit stuff out there in the world, and I don’t like that. I think that self-regulation is necessary precisely because you acknowledge your admiration for women and the sexual feelings that lie behind them.
AM
So you have more curiosity about women than most people.
Tomino
Of course (laughs). I do have the desire to cheat, but I could never put it into practice. I think that’s related to my lack of energy to create evil.
Tanaka
However, there are also people who pour the things they do not have the power to do in their daily lives into their work…
Tomino
There are people like that. Quite a lot of them. But I’m not that type. I don’t engage in flashy infidelity in my daily life, but deep down I do have that desire, so even when it comes to villains in stories, I consider, “They have their reasons for doing it too.”
AM
You’re a kind person.
Tomino
I’m a really kind man, but women have a hard time understanding me (laughs).
The scheduled three hours flew by. The two authors of Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which will be released in February 1988, and Mobile Suit Gundam: Char’s Counterattack, which will be released in March, gave their support to their respective works.
Tanaka-san speaks slowly, while Tomino-san speaks a little quickly. At first, the conversation started at Tomino-san’s pace, but as time went on, the two of them locked in. Although they sometimes went off topic, the conversation was very interesting for the editorial staff listening.
It seems that Tomino-san has his own challenges both as a writer and as an animation director. For Tanaka-san, this is the first time one of his own works has been adapted into an anime. It would be a lie to say he has no worries, but it seems like a whole new world will open up, and he appears to have high expectations. In any case, we look forward to seeing the two of them continue to do great things in the future.